Post by fugly on Mar 10, 2010 14:35:29 GMT -6
By CJ on old board:
ceej
Holley 600 Setup
« on: May 22, 2008, 04:50:22 PM »
Anybody running a 600 Vac Secondary willing to share what jets, cams, shooters and so forth?
I'm fighting an ongoing battle with mine.
62 Primaries, 10.5 PV, Orange-#1, 39 plate. 31 shooter on a 30cc pump.
I'm getting weird results. With a lean condition at 15-17" Cruise. (55ish mph)
I speed up to 65, vacuum goes up to 20", and mixture goes to Stoich.
Idle is rich, no matter what I do.
WOT blasts tend toward the Rich side.
I'm thinking the bleeds are messing me up.
I bumped the primary to 63's, which got rid of most of the lean situation at cruise, but now I run rich of Stoich.
Bump to a 22 plate? (Richer secondary jets with smaller bleeds?)
I ordered a Conversion metering block today. When I get it tomorrow, I'll install it, back the primary jets back off, then play with secondary jets.
When the PV rolls in it's like hitting an afterburner. I need to keep the car out of the PV when I hit the hills. That get's expensive!
CJ
ceej
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2008, 09:59:56 AM »
Well, I think I'll be dropping a Carter AFB on there tonight.
My cruise mixture is just too unstable. Minor weather changes are plunging me into lean/rich conditions. I've spent more time fooling with the Holleys than any other part on the car.
Getting tired of it!
CJ
slantzilla
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2008, 01:12:47 PM
I will be interested in seeing what the AFB reads on your meter.
Me? I'd throw the meter away and just drive it.
ceej
Jr. Member
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2008, 04:35:47 PM
I'm beginning to think your right!
I don't get any lean surge when it drops off the meter. It's a Narrow Band, so is only useful in a limited sort of way.
Joshie tossed a new Primary Metering block in the mix, and I pick up a conversion metering block tonight. That way I can play with jets instead of those dog-gone plates! (Where's the smiley that's yacking?)
There just aren't enough choices in plates.
It looks like Fopar and I will mount the Carter up later. We're getting a bit close to the points race in Medford to be messing around right now. I have to work this weekend, and won't have much time to fabricate linkages and such. I don't want to show up down there with a cobbled together mess.... In my Hooptie!
CJ
fugly
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2008, 09:12:13 PM
Sounds to me like your secondary spring might be a little off causing secondary action at cruise....
ceej
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2008, 08:07:59 AM
Thanks for the reply Fugly.
I've been playing musical secondary springs. Can't seem to get rid of it unless I stuff the Black spring in. That is equivelent to wiring the secondary shut. The transition slots aren't staying with the cut in at partial throttle settings. When I just thwak the peddle to the floor, it pops the secondary open fully, and there is no problem.
If I was towing to the track, none of this would be an issue. I drive to the various tracks though, and with the stroke, I have a deep seated fear of high speed detonation!
3.430" X 4.440"
It scoots pretty good. The cam selection pretty much peters out at 4500 rpm, though it might climb a little higher once I get my Dutras on there. That will have to wait till after Medford and Redding though.
The Carter that Fopar put together for me is a mechanical secondary. I had it running last night, but I'm thinking it's going to have an unrecoverable bog. It's an OEM off an Oldsmobile 305. He replaced the Annular boosters in the primary with a set out of a 600 AFB. I'm beginning to second guess that action. It had boosters for 500cfm. Tonight I'll take it for a drive and find out what it does.
CJ
fugly
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2008, 09:27:08 AM
What actual size is the AFB? The secondaries are air velocity actuated on that carb-linkage is mechanical, but there should be a set of blades above there with weights on the ends-if those are gone, it will very definitely bog. You cannot interchange primary boosters on those carbs without drilling some holes-it will never work properly. I am just guessing, because you don't give much info here, but if you have your ignition timing curve off of where that engine likes it, it will alter the burn and cause the carb to appear to be goofy, when actually the ignition is not allowing the supplied mixture to burn correctly.
ceej
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 10:26:53 AM
Good info.
This is an OEM Oldsmobile AFB. It's a 500 that we pulled the Primary boosters out of and installed 600 primary boosters in. They went right in. (Keep in mind that these are GM OEM carbs we're messing with, not aftermarket types.)
We'll see how it runs tonight.
If it goes sideways on me tonight, I'll play with the Holley again. One of my racing buddies from the great state of Washington mailed me a primary block. The one on my 600 has the reverse mixture screws that control fuel flow to the idle bleeds and transfers. Not really the best set up.
I'll get the air bleed mixture primary block on there, and give that a shot.
The secondary on the 600 Holley was raining fuel into the manifold. The rear bowl overfilled. I got that straightened out, so hopefully I don't have another problem there. I really like the way the Holley primary venturi's works with this engine. The 390 primary chokes the engine down too much. I picked up over 1/2 a second just on the 600 primary with the secondary locked out. It really wakes up on brown or plain secondary springs. So far, I haven't run with the jetted secondary block. The 600 runs with purple at a maximum. I had the 390 clear out to White and at times long yellow before I got a bog, though altitude played havok with spring choice on the little carb.
The 600 loves Brown everywhere. Vegas, Redding, Woodburn, Medford. It seems to be a lot more stable, but I don't use much of the secondary. Just that little bit.
I was running a 39 plate in the thing. The initial plan was to go with a 22 plate, but that's an expensive way to go!
This is a later 600, so no balance tube to remove and plug. My first thought when gas came raining down into my O2 sensor was that it must have had one. That wasn't the case.
I was running 62 primary jets, and put a set of 70 secondary jets in for the first test.
Right now I have 62's in the front, and 64-2's in the back. I'll probably need to go ~66-67 in the rear, but want to give it a chance to prove itself.
If the Carter works, I'll still carry the Holley to the track, just in case.
CJ
ceej
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2008, 11:25:32 PM
Holy Cow.
That didn't work at all. Lots of WOT high speed detonation after the pump shot ran out. The Carter is a mechanical secondary. If I'd known that before we got started, I wouldn't have. The engine is just too small to deal with flow and the carb can't feed fuel with the drop in engine vacuum when the secondary thwacks open.
Fopar meant well, but I don't have time at this point to screw with the thing.
I limped the car home tonight.
I put my 390 back together with 52's and 56's. It worked better. I need to get the pump cam and shooter straightened out. I'll put it back on Orange and a 31. I'll have to drive it a bit to figure out where the jetting on this critter wants to be. I had to pull my Power Valve out of the 600. This car idles in gear at better than 15" of Hg. Cruise is 15" or better. I need to grab a spare 10.5 PV. I sure wish there was something in a 12.5 performance high flow instead of the dual stage or low flow types.
Tomorrow after work I'll pull the 600 back down and see if I can get it fixed. If not, I don't know what I'm going to do.
Slantzilla, have you fiddled with the 4150 390 cfm? Anybody? It's mechanical, but at least my engine can breath that much.
I need a really strong 390, or to get my 600 working right. This is a pain.
Performance with the plate secondary was good, idle quality was lousy, and the middle of cruise was lean. I think my timing might have a lot to do with it. As the vacuum can pulled off timing, I started having a lean condition. As vacuum increased at higher speeds,,,,! the mixture came back. It doesn't make sense to me. It shouldn't do that.
It may have to do with the transfer slots. I may not be getting enough fuel in the transition circuit.
I sure wish the Diamondback guys were closer! I'd be at the shop right now!
I've got five days to get something that works on there. It may well be the old 600 with a 39 plate.
Goofy.
CJ
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 09:24:47 AM by ceej »
wicked/six
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2008, 03:25:28 AM »
Put the 600 back on and TUNE IT! You have the engine to beat me if you don't shame on you! Rain, screw rain i will be there to beat you into the pavment. Hoopties goin down!
TF
ceej
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2008, 08:34:22 AM
Bring it on Duster boy!
I got a bottle of something delightfully gruesome that says you ain't got the beans to do the deed!
CJ
wicked/six
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2008, 03:40:51 PM »
I'm gona blow all four of your doors off buddy .
Now i gota go and take off my bumpers.....
TF
ceej
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2008, 04:00:57 PM »
Quote from: wicked/six on May 26, 2008, 03:40:51 PM
Now i gota go and take off my bumpers.....
TF
Yer gonna need to save every ounce Ya can there Bucko!
So you're on. One bottle of Rot Gut.
What kinda hooch do you wanna make it?
CJ
wicked/six
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2008, 04:40:35 PM »
I'm kinda fond of crown but you can suprise me if you want!
TF
ceej
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2008, 05:01:34 PM »
Then a surprise it shall be!
CJ
ceej
Holley 600 Setup
« on: May 22, 2008, 04:50:22 PM »
Anybody running a 600 Vac Secondary willing to share what jets, cams, shooters and so forth?
I'm fighting an ongoing battle with mine.
62 Primaries, 10.5 PV, Orange-#1, 39 plate. 31 shooter on a 30cc pump.
I'm getting weird results. With a lean condition at 15-17" Cruise. (55ish mph)
I speed up to 65, vacuum goes up to 20", and mixture goes to Stoich.
Idle is rich, no matter what I do.
WOT blasts tend toward the Rich side.
I'm thinking the bleeds are messing me up.
I bumped the primary to 63's, which got rid of most of the lean situation at cruise, but now I run rich of Stoich.
Bump to a 22 plate? (Richer secondary jets with smaller bleeds?)
I ordered a Conversion metering block today. When I get it tomorrow, I'll install it, back the primary jets back off, then play with secondary jets.
When the PV rolls in it's like hitting an afterburner. I need to keep the car out of the PV when I hit the hills. That get's expensive!
CJ
ceej
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2008, 09:59:56 AM »
Well, I think I'll be dropping a Carter AFB on there tonight.
My cruise mixture is just too unstable. Minor weather changes are plunging me into lean/rich conditions. I've spent more time fooling with the Holleys than any other part on the car.
Getting tired of it!
CJ
slantzilla
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2008, 01:12:47 PM
I will be interested in seeing what the AFB reads on your meter.
Me? I'd throw the meter away and just drive it.
ceej
Jr. Member
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2008, 04:35:47 PM
I'm beginning to think your right!
I don't get any lean surge when it drops off the meter. It's a Narrow Band, so is only useful in a limited sort of way.
Joshie tossed a new Primary Metering block in the mix, and I pick up a conversion metering block tonight. That way I can play with jets instead of those dog-gone plates! (Where's the smiley that's yacking?)
There just aren't enough choices in plates.
It looks like Fopar and I will mount the Carter up later. We're getting a bit close to the points race in Medford to be messing around right now. I have to work this weekend, and won't have much time to fabricate linkages and such. I don't want to show up down there with a cobbled together mess.... In my Hooptie!
CJ
fugly
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2008, 09:12:13 PM
Sounds to me like your secondary spring might be a little off causing secondary action at cruise....
ceej
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2008, 08:07:59 AM
Thanks for the reply Fugly.
I've been playing musical secondary springs. Can't seem to get rid of it unless I stuff the Black spring in. That is equivelent to wiring the secondary shut. The transition slots aren't staying with the cut in at partial throttle settings. When I just thwak the peddle to the floor, it pops the secondary open fully, and there is no problem.
If I was towing to the track, none of this would be an issue. I drive to the various tracks though, and with the stroke, I have a deep seated fear of high speed detonation!
3.430" X 4.440"
It scoots pretty good. The cam selection pretty much peters out at 4500 rpm, though it might climb a little higher once I get my Dutras on there. That will have to wait till after Medford and Redding though.
The Carter that Fopar put together for me is a mechanical secondary. I had it running last night, but I'm thinking it's going to have an unrecoverable bog. It's an OEM off an Oldsmobile 305. He replaced the Annular boosters in the primary with a set out of a 600 AFB. I'm beginning to second guess that action. It had boosters for 500cfm. Tonight I'll take it for a drive and find out what it does.
CJ
fugly
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2008, 09:27:08 AM
What actual size is the AFB? The secondaries are air velocity actuated on that carb-linkage is mechanical, but there should be a set of blades above there with weights on the ends-if those are gone, it will very definitely bog. You cannot interchange primary boosters on those carbs without drilling some holes-it will never work properly. I am just guessing, because you don't give much info here, but if you have your ignition timing curve off of where that engine likes it, it will alter the burn and cause the carb to appear to be goofy, when actually the ignition is not allowing the supplied mixture to burn correctly.
ceej
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 10:26:53 AM
Good info.
This is an OEM Oldsmobile AFB. It's a 500 that we pulled the Primary boosters out of and installed 600 primary boosters in. They went right in. (Keep in mind that these are GM OEM carbs we're messing with, not aftermarket types.)
We'll see how it runs tonight.
If it goes sideways on me tonight, I'll play with the Holley again. One of my racing buddies from the great state of Washington mailed me a primary block. The one on my 600 has the reverse mixture screws that control fuel flow to the idle bleeds and transfers. Not really the best set up.
I'll get the air bleed mixture primary block on there, and give that a shot.
The secondary on the 600 Holley was raining fuel into the manifold. The rear bowl overfilled. I got that straightened out, so hopefully I don't have another problem there. I really like the way the Holley primary venturi's works with this engine. The 390 primary chokes the engine down too much. I picked up over 1/2 a second just on the 600 primary with the secondary locked out. It really wakes up on brown or plain secondary springs. So far, I haven't run with the jetted secondary block. The 600 runs with purple at a maximum. I had the 390 clear out to White and at times long yellow before I got a bog, though altitude played havok with spring choice on the little carb.
The 600 loves Brown everywhere. Vegas, Redding, Woodburn, Medford. It seems to be a lot more stable, but I don't use much of the secondary. Just that little bit.
I was running a 39 plate in the thing. The initial plan was to go with a 22 plate, but that's an expensive way to go!
This is a later 600, so no balance tube to remove and plug. My first thought when gas came raining down into my O2 sensor was that it must have had one. That wasn't the case.
I was running 62 primary jets, and put a set of 70 secondary jets in for the first test.
Right now I have 62's in the front, and 64-2's in the back. I'll probably need to go ~66-67 in the rear, but want to give it a chance to prove itself.
If the Carter works, I'll still carry the Holley to the track, just in case.
CJ
ceej
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2008, 11:25:32 PM
Holy Cow.
That didn't work at all. Lots of WOT high speed detonation after the pump shot ran out. The Carter is a mechanical secondary. If I'd known that before we got started, I wouldn't have. The engine is just too small to deal with flow and the carb can't feed fuel with the drop in engine vacuum when the secondary thwacks open.
Fopar meant well, but I don't have time at this point to screw with the thing.
I limped the car home tonight.
I put my 390 back together with 52's and 56's. It worked better. I need to get the pump cam and shooter straightened out. I'll put it back on Orange and a 31. I'll have to drive it a bit to figure out where the jetting on this critter wants to be. I had to pull my Power Valve out of the 600. This car idles in gear at better than 15" of Hg. Cruise is 15" or better. I need to grab a spare 10.5 PV. I sure wish there was something in a 12.5 performance high flow instead of the dual stage or low flow types.
Tomorrow after work I'll pull the 600 back down and see if I can get it fixed. If not, I don't know what I'm going to do.
Slantzilla, have you fiddled with the 4150 390 cfm? Anybody? It's mechanical, but at least my engine can breath that much.
I need a really strong 390, or to get my 600 working right. This is a pain.
Performance with the plate secondary was good, idle quality was lousy, and the middle of cruise was lean. I think my timing might have a lot to do with it. As the vacuum can pulled off timing, I started having a lean condition. As vacuum increased at higher speeds,,,,! the mixture came back. It doesn't make sense to me. It shouldn't do that.
It may have to do with the transfer slots. I may not be getting enough fuel in the transition circuit.
I sure wish the Diamondback guys were closer! I'd be at the shop right now!
I've got five days to get something that works on there. It may well be the old 600 with a 39 plate.
Goofy.
CJ
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 09:24:47 AM by ceej »
wicked/six
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2008, 03:25:28 AM »
Put the 600 back on and TUNE IT! You have the engine to beat me if you don't shame on you! Rain, screw rain i will be there to beat you into the pavment. Hoopties goin down!
TF
ceej
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2008, 08:34:22 AM
Bring it on Duster boy!
I got a bottle of something delightfully gruesome that says you ain't got the beans to do the deed!
CJ
wicked/six
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2008, 03:40:51 PM »
I'm gona blow all four of your doors off buddy .
Now i gota go and take off my bumpers.....
TF
ceej
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2008, 04:00:57 PM »
Quote from: wicked/six on May 26, 2008, 03:40:51 PM
Now i gota go and take off my bumpers.....
TF
Yer gonna need to save every ounce Ya can there Bucko!
So you're on. One bottle of Rot Gut.
What kinda hooch do you wanna make it?
CJ
wicked/six
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2008, 04:40:35 PM »
I'm kinda fond of crown but you can suprise me if you want!
TF
ceej
Re: Holley 600 Setup
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2008, 05:01:34 PM »
Then a surprise it shall be!
CJ