Post by fugly on Mar 10, 2010 16:04:03 GMT -6
wayfarer
poly intake adapters
« on: October 28, 2007, 01:25:39 PM »
Greetings to all,
For those who may still have an interest in adapting early Hemi intakes to the 318P, this is where my efforts stand at this time;
It requires alot of cash ! I have talked with many machine shops, both job and production types with late model CNC systems, and they are all in the same price range of $1600 - $1900 for the initial run of 20 prototype pieces (10 pair). (At this time, my spare cash is tied up in a new 4600 sf steel building that sits on $22,000 worth of concrete...)
This initial run should be used for practical assessment and useability of the swap and to fine tune the physical appearance of the plates. This initial run includes the cost of programming which will not show up in additional production unless changes are made. Small changes = small costs.
The parts, ON PAPER, look promising but until they are actually bolted on an operating engine and tested we are only 'wishing'. As designed, these adapters will require slight modifications (additional bolt holes) to the cylinder head because of bolt location overlap. This very well may be the reason that no one else carried on with the project after Chrysler made their tests on the 56 Ply.
So here is the deal. If someone wants to take charge of soliciting for and collecting 'deposits' from folks at large then I will coordinate initial production and subsequent change orders. Since I deal with Early Hemi parts I am reluctant to add this item to my inventory but will need some compensation for my design time. This could be addressed in the price structure of additional part runs. I think that those who invest initially should receive a free pair (for each pair that they initially pay for) of the 'final', massaged, parts. Pretty simple.
This discussion is open to all, suggestions are welcome. If you have questions for me then send a note direct or call.
Happy Motoring !
Quality Engineered Components
Early Hemi Parts & Tech help
Trans adapters since 1980
polyman64
Newbie
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2007, 12:25:56 PM »
You know if we could even get 16 or so Poly heads to throw in a $100.00 bucks we could do it. I would be willing to do it. Bob A.
Abomination
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2007, 09:05:22 AM »
I'm poor as a church mouse, but for this I could scrape up the dough.
Why not sell 'em for $200/set to get 'em paid for, then those guys would have the honor of being ginuea pigs and testing 'em out?
Can these be made without a CNC machine? You know, with a machine shop decking the ends flat, and drilling the holes with a drill press before tapping?
~Jason
Abomination
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2007, 10:43:03 AM »
Check this out:
www.emachineshop.com/
It's kind of a "use our free CAD software and we'll quote you a price to make it on our waterjet" deal.
Custom parts/intake adapters, anyone?
~Jason
Abomination
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2008, 01:19:32 PM »
Reviving this thread. Any thoughts, folks? The community needs these.
lonli1
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2008, 07:05:27 PM »
i could maybe throw a dollar or two in for the sake of learnin...
wayfarer
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2008, 10:24:17 AM »
Nice to know that the thread is not dead. I have discussed the benefits of first rough cutting the plates before throwing them into the machining centre and it does not appear to save any money.
Keep in touch.
Gary
oldngood
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2008, 09:04:28 AM »
Quote from: wayfarer on October 28, 2007, 01:25:39 PM
Greetings to all,
For those who may still have an interest in adapting early Hemi intakes to the 318P, this is where my efforts stand at this time;
It requires alot of cash ! I have talked with many machine shops, both job and production types with late model CNC systems, and they are all in the same price range of $1600 - $1900 for the initial run of 20 prototype pieces (10 pair).
that is a valiant effort. But I'm wondering why you really want to do this ?
if you use a factory 2-bbl intake and adapt the big Holley 2bbl to it 500-650 cfm, that is plenty of carb for a 318P, they only need 500-600 cfm to run 6000 rpm
2 big 4-bbls. is actually way too big
I could see having a new 1-4 made, but realistically, upon resale you will not recoup the R&D costs, it would lose money. There's simply not enough people running this engine (yet) to make it worthwhile.
but that may be a good thing....the other extreme is, engines as common as a SBC
wayfarer
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2008, 04:27:38 PM »
Just a reminder to all newcomers of the origins of the proposed swap. The desire was to be able to use available single 4-bbl intakes from the 354 and 392 engine. These are excellent dual plane designs!!
oldngood
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2008, 04:50:07 PM »
the jake setup is, use the stock OEM 2-bbl intake, but adapt a Holley 500-650 CFM 2-barrel to it, with an adapter plate- you get electric choke and performance, without all the hassles of making an intake- and 650 cfm is plenty for even a 354 big Chrysler poly- it's a lot easier to bolt on/adapt with a plate
cgi.ebay.com/HOLLEY-650-CFM-2-BARREL-COMP-CARBURETOR-Rare-Item_W0QQitemZ170197629133QQihZ007QQcategoryZ43807QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
casting up new parts is very tricky business, and very expensive- not only casting them, but then they have to be machined at mating surfaces- for an engine with this small niche following, it's just not worth it
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 09:19:20 PM by oldngood »
Abomination
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2008, 09:40:59 AM »
Maybe these could be made in Mexico... LOL!
Just kidding. Well, maybe... I DO want 'em awfully bad!
~Jason
Quote from: wayfarer on February 05, 2008, 10:24:17 AM
Nice to know that the thread is not dead. I have discussed the benefits of first rough cutting the plates before throwing them into the machining centre and it does not appear to save any money.
Keep in touch.
Gary
panic
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2008, 01:14:15 PM »
I agree, an adapter to use a common manifold would be preferable to a new manifold in terms of price.
However, what is to be done to:
1. plumb water to passages in the 318 intake port face, which will be covered by the Chrysler flanges?
2. cover and seal the 318 valley area since the 318 manifold has an integral cover, but the Chrysler manifolds are all "dry" (free-standing air-gap types with separate covers)?
The Chrysler valley cover bolts to a horizontal section of exposed block which doesn't exist on the 318.
Abomination
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2008, 02:35:30 PM »
I had thought about this - it would be ugly, but what about holes tapped for fittings, and using heater hose? It's ugly, but it could work.
Hey - I didn't say it was a good idea.
And as for a valley cover, I'm sure if the adapters come about before the valley covers, well, "necessity is the mother of invention", you know? Surely folks could make their own, right? Something like that wouldn't be too hard to fab, or even too expensive to have cast.
~Jason
panic
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2008, 06:22:43 PM »
Yes, just threading (or using - doesn't look like too many aftermarket Chrysler manifolds have this fitting ready for use) a pipe to hose fitting will allow hoses to run the water - and potentially using all 4 water ports (each 318 head has 2, but only uses 1). It might turn out to be an improvement over the original in terms of controlling knock due to head temp.
All the water hoses should merge into a remote thermostat housing, then to the radiator.
The valley could be cobbled out of sheet, but I can't see any easy way to secure it; perhaps to the sides of the valve cover rails? A dead 318 manifold could be sacrificed to cut a chunk out of the front but it has to miss the Chrysler manifold, and you need a way to clamp it on the passenger's side - a small bracket off the closest bolts?
Abomination
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2008, 10:40:48 PM »
Exactly! Wayfarer, there may yet be merit in the heater hose/fitting idea.
I figured a sheet metal valley cover that bolted down UNDER the intake adapter would be the thing. That, or going the bracket route with a gob of black RTV.
Hell, ideally the valley cover could be part of the adapter, but then again you may be getting into a cast part, which would lose the "cheap" factor here... maybe. If it's modeled in Pro E or AutoCad, you can digitally increase the size by 30% to allow for the shrinkage, email the file to the foundry, and they'll not only put it on their 3-D printer to make the model, but can begin a test cast immediately. Hell, as long as they know the normal size, they can make it however big they need it to adjust for the shrinkage.
I know where Charlie Price from Vintage Speed gets his stuff cast - there here local in Kansas City on the Kansas side. From what they say, it's not that much per-unit to do this. Then again, you'd need to bankroll the initial run, or sell a lot of pre-orders. God knows, the MSRP on 'em would be kind of ugly...
poly intake adapters
« on: October 28, 2007, 01:25:39 PM »
Greetings to all,
For those who may still have an interest in adapting early Hemi intakes to the 318P, this is where my efforts stand at this time;
It requires alot of cash ! I have talked with many machine shops, both job and production types with late model CNC systems, and they are all in the same price range of $1600 - $1900 for the initial run of 20 prototype pieces (10 pair). (At this time, my spare cash is tied up in a new 4600 sf steel building that sits on $22,000 worth of concrete...)
This initial run should be used for practical assessment and useability of the swap and to fine tune the physical appearance of the plates. This initial run includes the cost of programming which will not show up in additional production unless changes are made. Small changes = small costs.
The parts, ON PAPER, look promising but until they are actually bolted on an operating engine and tested we are only 'wishing'. As designed, these adapters will require slight modifications (additional bolt holes) to the cylinder head because of bolt location overlap. This very well may be the reason that no one else carried on with the project after Chrysler made their tests on the 56 Ply.
So here is the deal. If someone wants to take charge of soliciting for and collecting 'deposits' from folks at large then I will coordinate initial production and subsequent change orders. Since I deal with Early Hemi parts I am reluctant to add this item to my inventory but will need some compensation for my design time. This could be addressed in the price structure of additional part runs. I think that those who invest initially should receive a free pair (for each pair that they initially pay for) of the 'final', massaged, parts. Pretty simple.
This discussion is open to all, suggestions are welcome. If you have questions for me then send a note direct or call.
Happy Motoring !
Quality Engineered Components
Early Hemi Parts & Tech help
Trans adapters since 1980
polyman64
Newbie
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2007, 12:25:56 PM »
You know if we could even get 16 or so Poly heads to throw in a $100.00 bucks we could do it. I would be willing to do it. Bob A.
Abomination
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2007, 09:05:22 AM »
I'm poor as a church mouse, but for this I could scrape up the dough.
Why not sell 'em for $200/set to get 'em paid for, then those guys would have the honor of being ginuea pigs and testing 'em out?
Can these be made without a CNC machine? You know, with a machine shop decking the ends flat, and drilling the holes with a drill press before tapping?
~Jason
Abomination
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2007, 10:43:03 AM »
Check this out:
www.emachineshop.com/
It's kind of a "use our free CAD software and we'll quote you a price to make it on our waterjet" deal.
Custom parts/intake adapters, anyone?
~Jason
Abomination
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2008, 01:19:32 PM »
Reviving this thread. Any thoughts, folks? The community needs these.
lonli1
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2008, 07:05:27 PM »
i could maybe throw a dollar or two in for the sake of learnin...
wayfarer
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2008, 10:24:17 AM »
Nice to know that the thread is not dead. I have discussed the benefits of first rough cutting the plates before throwing them into the machining centre and it does not appear to save any money.
Keep in touch.
Gary
oldngood
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2008, 09:04:28 AM »
Quote from: wayfarer on October 28, 2007, 01:25:39 PM
Greetings to all,
For those who may still have an interest in adapting early Hemi intakes to the 318P, this is where my efforts stand at this time;
It requires alot of cash ! I have talked with many machine shops, both job and production types with late model CNC systems, and they are all in the same price range of $1600 - $1900 for the initial run of 20 prototype pieces (10 pair).
that is a valiant effort. But I'm wondering why you really want to do this ?
if you use a factory 2-bbl intake and adapt the big Holley 2bbl to it 500-650 cfm, that is plenty of carb for a 318P, they only need 500-600 cfm to run 6000 rpm
2 big 4-bbls. is actually way too big
I could see having a new 1-4 made, but realistically, upon resale you will not recoup the R&D costs, it would lose money. There's simply not enough people running this engine (yet) to make it worthwhile.
but that may be a good thing....the other extreme is, engines as common as a SBC
wayfarer
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2008, 04:27:38 PM »
Just a reminder to all newcomers of the origins of the proposed swap. The desire was to be able to use available single 4-bbl intakes from the 354 and 392 engine. These are excellent dual plane designs!!
oldngood
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2008, 04:50:07 PM »
the jake setup is, use the stock OEM 2-bbl intake, but adapt a Holley 500-650 CFM 2-barrel to it, with an adapter plate- you get electric choke and performance, without all the hassles of making an intake- and 650 cfm is plenty for even a 354 big Chrysler poly- it's a lot easier to bolt on/adapt with a plate
cgi.ebay.com/HOLLEY-650-CFM-2-BARREL-COMP-CARBURETOR-Rare-Item_W0QQitemZ170197629133QQihZ007QQcategoryZ43807QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
casting up new parts is very tricky business, and very expensive- not only casting them, but then they have to be machined at mating surfaces- for an engine with this small niche following, it's just not worth it
« Last Edit: March 07, 2008, 09:19:20 PM by oldngood »
Abomination
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2008, 09:40:59 AM »
Maybe these could be made in Mexico... LOL!
Just kidding. Well, maybe... I DO want 'em awfully bad!
~Jason
Quote from: wayfarer on February 05, 2008, 10:24:17 AM
Nice to know that the thread is not dead. I have discussed the benefits of first rough cutting the plates before throwing them into the machining centre and it does not appear to save any money.
Keep in touch.
Gary
panic
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2008, 01:14:15 PM »
I agree, an adapter to use a common manifold would be preferable to a new manifold in terms of price.
However, what is to be done to:
1. plumb water to passages in the 318 intake port face, which will be covered by the Chrysler flanges?
2. cover and seal the 318 valley area since the 318 manifold has an integral cover, but the Chrysler manifolds are all "dry" (free-standing air-gap types with separate covers)?
The Chrysler valley cover bolts to a horizontal section of exposed block which doesn't exist on the 318.
Abomination
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2008, 02:35:30 PM »
I had thought about this - it would be ugly, but what about holes tapped for fittings, and using heater hose? It's ugly, but it could work.
Hey - I didn't say it was a good idea.
And as for a valley cover, I'm sure if the adapters come about before the valley covers, well, "necessity is the mother of invention", you know? Surely folks could make their own, right? Something like that wouldn't be too hard to fab, or even too expensive to have cast.
~Jason
panic
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2008, 06:22:43 PM »
Yes, just threading (or using - doesn't look like too many aftermarket Chrysler manifolds have this fitting ready for use) a pipe to hose fitting will allow hoses to run the water - and potentially using all 4 water ports (each 318 head has 2, but only uses 1). It might turn out to be an improvement over the original in terms of controlling knock due to head temp.
All the water hoses should merge into a remote thermostat housing, then to the radiator.
The valley could be cobbled out of sheet, but I can't see any easy way to secure it; perhaps to the sides of the valve cover rails? A dead 318 manifold could be sacrificed to cut a chunk out of the front but it has to miss the Chrysler manifold, and you need a way to clamp it on the passenger's side - a small bracket off the closest bolts?
Abomination
Re: poly intake adapters
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2008, 10:40:48 PM »
Exactly! Wayfarer, there may yet be merit in the heater hose/fitting idea.
I figured a sheet metal valley cover that bolted down UNDER the intake adapter would be the thing. That, or going the bracket route with a gob of black RTV.
Hell, ideally the valley cover could be part of the adapter, but then again you may be getting into a cast part, which would lose the "cheap" factor here... maybe. If it's modeled in Pro E or AutoCad, you can digitally increase the size by 30% to allow for the shrinkage, email the file to the foundry, and they'll not only put it on their 3-D printer to make the model, but can begin a test cast immediately. Hell, as long as they know the normal size, they can make it however big they need it to adjust for the shrinkage.
I know where Charlie Price from Vintage Speed gets his stuff cast - there here local in Kansas City on the Kansas side. From what they say, it's not that much per-unit to do this. Then again, you'd need to bankroll the initial run, or sell a lot of pre-orders. God knows, the MSRP on 'em would be kind of ugly...